(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[1800]OT[5x60 byo-yomi]
PW[breakfast]PB[Vo1d]WR[3p]BR[4d]DT[2011-11-09]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Vo1d [4d\]: hello
Vo1d [4d\]: have a nice game !
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[1780.852]C[breakfast [3p\]: Have a good game!
]
;W[dd]WL[1785.288]
;B[dp]BL[1771.74]
;W[pp]WL[1777.738]
;B[cn]BL[1740.851]
;W[jq]WL[1757.951]
;B[qn]BL[1694.301]C[moyomoto [1k\]: Have a kitkat!
]
;W[np]WL[1730.412]C[goren2 [4k\]: have at it!
]
;B[rp]BL[1669.095]
;W[qf]WL[1712.771]
;B[nd]BL[1632.867]C[foureyes [5k\]: handy??
]
;W[qm]WL[1700.74]C[Worb [?\]: none
]
;B[pm]BL[1578.38]
;W[ql]WL[1698.61]C[goren2 [4k\]: r3 safe and good now or what? (for b)
]
;B[rn]BL[1508.068]
;W[qq]WL[1623.872]
;B[pl]BL[1422.181]
;W[qk]WL[1619.511]
;B[pk]BL[1411.918]
;W[qj]WL[1606.485]
;B[oq]BL[1408.987]
;W[op]WL[1584.806]
;B[on]BL[1407.123]C[liusasori [3d\]: but he forget the coming atari at c4
breakfast [3p\]: ideal fuseki
breakfast [3p\]: P3-nice timing!
]
;W[pj]WL[1553.231]C[moyomoto [1k\]: joseki?
]
;B[qe]BL[1380.295]
;W[pf]WL[1551.22]
;B[jc]BL[1376.854]
;W[rq]WL[1492.256]C[Metonymous [1k\]: yes it was joseki
]
(;B[oj]BL[1306.344]C[breakfast [3p\]: was a bit slow
]
;W[oi]WL[1481.326]
;B[nj]BL[1275.134]C[devasatyam [5k\]: not joseki joseki means both sides make equal gain
]
;W[qc]WL[1423.887]C[Metonymous [1k\]: in isolation, and for some value of "gain"
breakfast [3p\]: and here -
]
(;B[re]BL[1258.138]
;W[oc]WL[1421.65]C[kaly [1k\]: joseki is hard to define ... 
Metonymous [1k\]: i'm not talking about the fuseki, but the pattern they played in lower right is known
]
;B[od]BL[1247.485]
;W[nb]WL[1374.525]C[sanjulorf [1d\]: joseki means approved sequence by pros.. it is not need to be equal since one side might start with more stones to the sequence.. And it is hard to define equality when one side gets territory and other side gets influence etc..
]
(;B[qh]BL[1171.986]C[svenkramer: joseki means optimal play from both sides
TomoyaKun [3d\]: does it really have to be approved by pros?
Metonymous [1k\]: again, only in isolation does it mean that
sanjulorf [1d\]: maybe...
Metonymous [1k\]: you can pick the wrong joseki, and then the moves aren't optimal on a larger scale
]
;W[rf]WL[1321.048]
;B[oh]BL[1162.7]
;W[ph]WL[1306.401]C[goren2 [4k\]: so according to sven there is only one and only joseki in any given position
]
;B[pg]BL[1120.885]
;W[pi]WL[1257.315]C[Worb [?\]: the amount of time alexander takes on local responses is scary ^^
svenkramer: joseki  would be the saddlepoint 
]
;B[qg]BL[1033.52]
;W[og]WL[1246.686]C[svenkramer: but since it is usually only possible for a perfect player to determine the saddlepoint 
svenkramer: the definitions vary
]
;B[of]BL[994.53]
;W[nh]WL[1244.517]C[Metonymous [1k\]: how is it a saddle point?
]
;B[rg]BL[971.154]
;W[nf]WL[1242.292]C[breakfast [3p\]: W got great shape
breakfast [3p\]: and sente
]
;B[oe]BL[970.265]C[goren2 [4k\]: according to you it needs to be optimal.  
]
;W[gq]WL[1225.38]C[svenkramer: saddlepoint is a term from gametheory
breakfast [3p\]: I have big lead now
breakfast [3p\]: see you again!
Vo1d [4d\]: ok
Vo1d [4d\]: thank you
AmerBeton [4k\]: seems so easy when u explain
Vo1d [4d\]: bye
sanjulorf [1d\]: thx
]
;B[cf]BL[957.678]
;W[fc]WL[1222.037]
;B[dj]BL[954.617]
;W[bd]WL[1213.497]C[sanjulorf [1d\]: what you refer is like defining a perfect game...
dmitriy81 [10k\]: n3 ?
jebak [11k\]: and what does it mean?
jebak [11k\]: saddlepoint?
]
;B[ef]BL[897.813]C[zaphod [3k\]: is this a maths lesson room or a kibbitz window?
Metonymous [1k\]: hm that term doesn't really seem related to other saddle points
goren2 [4k\]: d3, d2 or c3/
sanjulorf [1d\]: zaphod, you are not familiar with kgs kibitz? 
thecmvick [3k\]: thanks for bringing up terrible memories of multi variable calculus..
devasatyam [5k\]: eeee moyo forming
thecmvick [3k\]: ur all evil
olag [2k\]: d1?
sanjulorf [1d\]: kibitz here includes almost everything :))
Metonymous [1k\]: actually maybe i'm wrong
olag [2k\]: D2...¨¨
Metonymous [1k\]: if you plotted a game over some kind of space..
thecmvick [3k\]: 3d go
]
;W[lc]WL[1087.389]C[goren2 [4k\]: basically it was some joseki they played.  Be it mainline or not, doesn't matter - apparently it was seen in play before amongst hig ranking players.  Maybe it;s even described somewhere.  hence it;s a joseki no matter that sven says
Maedsr123: no handicap
goren2 [4k\]: what*
thecmvick [3k\]: goren lost me
thecmvick [3k\]: at joseki
Maedsr123: ^_^
badaji [1d\]: n13?
goren2 [4k\]: mif only my stones had that kind of power...
goren2 [4k\]: if
]
;B[ld]BL[758.684]C[thecmvick [3k\]: ud think they all have the same power
thecmvick [3k\]: just the player sucks
]
;W[mc]WL[1071.821]C[goren2 [4k\]: the potential energy of a stone is directly related to who places them.  Hence when they leave my hand they have a certain degree of ower imbued within them
]
;B[mg]BL[678.819]C[thecmvick [3k\]: think that depends less on the hand and more where u play it.
]
;W[mh]WL[1044.791]
;B[lh]BL[656.036]C[goren2 [4k\]: not saying they depend on the hand
vagabundo [3d\]: f4?
vagabundo [3d\]: or e3?
]
;W[lg]WL[1013.661]C[vagabundo [3d\]: in that corner for b
golem7 [1d\]: potential energy of a stone depends on the height from which you let it drop onto the board
]
;B[kg]BL[543.2]
;W[lf]WL[1007.018]
;B[li]BL[517.49]
;W[kf]WL[989.328]C[goren2 [4k\]: more like from the calculating intent you empower it with 
]
;B[jf]BL[491.945]
;W[je]WL[969.648]
;B[if]BL[425.612]
;W[rd]WL[960.141]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: oups ?
ptitlou [2d\]: live with s11 so no big pb
zzzzzzz22 [2k\]: This is Korean-style Insei League! http://insei-league.com/
]
;B[pc]BL[359.061]
;W[pb]WL[957.955]C[olag [2k\]: MDR
olag [2k\]: s17 tesuji
]
;B[sd]BL[327.638]
;W[sc]WL[932.579]C[vagabundo [3d\]: s17 tesuji?
]
;B[rb]BL[272.274]
;W[qb]WL[885.207]C[olag [2k\]: befor
vagabundo [3d\]: before?
liusasori [3d\]: even before, i don't see s17 working..
]
;B[rc]BL[205.948]C[vagabundo [3d\]: before t16 you say?
liusasori [3d\]: (but no it is ;) )
liusasori [3d\]: now*
olag [2k\]: 72 move
vagabundo [3d\]: then no
vagabundo [3d\]: s17-s18
]
;W[se]WL[838.282]C[olag [2k\]: 72 white->q18
vagabundo [3d\]: yes, but s17 nothing
vagabundo [3d\]: black lose that stone
olag [2k\]: blck s17 and live without condition
vagabundo [3d\]: ko
liusasori [3d\]: s17 s18 t15 s11 t17 r16 t16 r18 and ?
liusasori [3d\]: (at move 72)
lut [1k?\]: R16
elianovici [4k\]: q15
]
;B[qd]BL[115.84]
;W[ra]WL[819.126]C[liusasori [3d\]: b a lot of local threat
]
;B[sd]BL[75.13]C[vagabundo [3d\]: b cant die here
elianovici [4k\]: q15, s11
AmerBeton [4k\]: i wouldnt bet on this
moyomoto [1k\]: is this big?
liusasori [3d\]: p16 will surely live, but b will maybe lose r13
]
;W[po]WL[779.426]C[vagabundo [3d\]: yes
goren2 [4k\]: void needs more time
]
;B[sf]BL[60]OB[5]C[liusasori [3d\]: this threat is bigger than 17points, because it's weaken all center
goren2 [4k\]: can he kill top/
]
;W[pn]WL[718.98]C[goren2 [4k\]: ?
vagabundo [3d\]: no
vagabundo [3d\]: big mistake
vagabundo [3d\]: in my opinion
vagabundo [3d\]: because black could make life anytime with q15
]
;B[ie]BL[60]OB[5]C[vagabundo [3d\]: and taking this doesnt kill the white top group
liusasori [3d\]: w bottom is very solid were b outside power has decreased
AmerBeton [4k\]: b not bad
liusasori [3d\]: n11 cut will be very damaging for b now
]
;W[mi]WL[637.191]C[vagabundo [3d\]: yes
liusasori [3d\]: never ignore a pro threat..
vagabundo [3d\]: n10
]
;B[lj]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[mj]WL[621.054]
;B[lk]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[mk]WL[618.009]C[vagabundo [3d\]: black will have to give up those stones
vagabundo [3d\]: so
ptitlou [2d\]: not a bad idea i think
]
;B[ll]BL[60]OB[5]C[vagabundo [3d\]: game over almost
conan555 [15k\]: b L 15
liusasori [3d\]: so w q6 was about 40 points
]
;W[hn]WL[598.243]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: not if b played the connection 
conan555 [15k\]: b L 15 and N 14
goren2 [4k\]: h4?
AmerBeton [4k\]: ???
]
;B[ip]BL[60]OB[5]C[vagabundo [3d\]: h6 seems very high
goren2 [4k\]: wh4
]
;W[go]WL[544.934]C[vagabundo [3d\]: if white plays h4 they take away his pro tcertificate
AmerBeton [4k\]: :)
liusasori [3d\]: ;)
]
;B[iq]BL[60]OB[5]C[goren2 [4k\]: so bad?  why?
liusasori [3d\]: k5 ?
liusasori [3d\]: k6 maybe
sanjulorf [1d\]: goren, why touch a stone?.. 
goren2 [4k\]: it's sexy...? no, wait...
Snowbars [2d\]: j2 ?
sanjulorf [1d\]: yes :)
AmerBeton [4k\]: same idea
vagabundo [3d\]: h4 touch a weak stone goren
AmerBeton [4k\]: weak is sexy ?
]
;W[ir]WL[474.448]C[goren2 [4k\]: is there isme idea of not touching weak stones?
goren2 [4k\]: some*
MiniNinja [1k\]: it is the idea
]
;B[hr]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[jr]WL[468.238]
;B[hq]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[gr]WL[464.028]C[goren2 [4k\]: so theory is not touching weak stones?  hm, i see where i might improve a bit...
liusasori [3d\]: because when you play against a weak stone, you help it 
]
;B[hs]BL[60]OB[5]C[sanjulorf [1d\]: well there are many exceptions for that.. for example you can make a contact move if you try to live in a small space
Snowbars [2d\]: e2 ?
goren2 [4k\]: damn, that si starting to make sense - I actually never thought about that before
ptitlou [2d\]: if you try to live in a small place then you are the weak stone
liusasori [3d\]: then it's your stone the weak one ;)
]
;W[jp]WL[423.829]C[sanjulorf [1d\]: but usually you dont want your opponents group make stronger
]
;B[io]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[dq]WL[412.99]C[vagabundo [3d\]: k4
vagabundo [3d\]: ?=
sanjulorf [1d\]: k4 seems legit :)
Snowbars [2d\]: f4 
]
;B[cq]BL[60]OB[5]C[ptitlou [2d\]: no ! g4 is the path to avoid geta at k6
AmerBeton [4k\]: f4 make b group stronger
AmerBeton [4k\]: same mistake as 4k
AmerBeton [4k\]: :)
]
;W[eq]WL[358.882]C[Snowbars [2d\]: f4 instead c3 
Snowbars [2d\]: later e3 will better for B
ptitlou [2d\]: snow bar if f4 g4 then whatever black move then w can k6
AmerBeton [4k\]: b f4 w g4
AmerBeton [4k\]: then b dying
AmerBeton [4k\]: no ?
vagabundo [3d\]: white doesnt need to kill
vagabundo [3d\]: just to chase j5
vagabundo [3d\]: into black moyo
Snowbars [2d\]: ok you are right
goren2 [4k\]: b k5 or c2?
ptitlou [2d\]: now black has to flee because k6 working again
]
;B[jo]BL[60]OB[4]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: k4 was on good purpose sooner
]
;W[cr]WL[348.792]C[Snowbars [2d\]: nice for W
]
;B[bq]BL[60]OB[4]C[ptitlou [2d\]: yes and nearly every move was forced for b...
vagabundo [3d\]: m4?
vagabundo [3d\]: =)
]
;W[ko]WL[335.677]
;B[kn]BL[60]OB[4]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: m4 makes no pressure
]
;W[ln]WL[322.795]C[sanjulorf [1d\]: why c2?.. m4 seemed better
sanjulorf [1d\]: *b3
vagabundo [3d\]: no, m4 for b instead of b3
AmerBeton [4k\]: ah ok
]
;B[ep]BL[60]OB[4]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: so now white corner huuge
sanjulorf [1d\]: i also meant that :) ... this way b is so passive and accept his faith
AmerBeton [4k\]: and w living in b moyo
goren2 [4k\]: b resign; moyo invaded, life, and chase.   and maybe stones dead too
AmerBeton [4k\]: ko ?
AmerBeton [4k\]: lol
]
;W[jn]WL[291.735]
;B[in]BL[60]OB[4]C[vagabundo [3d\]: ponuki
liusasori [3d\]: l7 sente ..
liusasori [3d\]: (for w)
]
;W[km]WL[270.615]C[Masaki [4d\]: yeah sad..
ptitlou [2d\]: well black trying to kill as a last hope
rasto: its not corner, its quarter
AmerBeton [4k\]: sente ponnuki
AmerBeton [4k\]: so big
sanjulorf [1d\]: wow b lost almost a quarter on the right
vagabundo [3d\]: to kill
]
;B[im]BL[60]OB[4]C[Masaki [4d\]: w play just beauty
vagabundo [3d\]: he need f4 first
Snowbars [2d\]: b2 !
]
;W[fp]WL[241.61]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: game looks almost over
ptitlou [2d\]: yes forgetting f4 was ..;mmhh...
AmerBeton [4k\]: w alive, b has to close moyo
]
;B[fr]BL[60]OB[4]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: but he looks really late in yose 
Snowbars [2d\]: seems f4 for W is wrong
]
;W[gs]WL[226.275]C[Masaki [4d\]: you think snow ?
]
;B[br]BL[60]OB[4]C[Snowbars [2d\]: W can dead
liusasori [3d\]: thanks to f4, w can cut at g1
vagabundo [3d\]: e5
AmerBeton [4k\]: i think w did enough lives and death exercices i guess
Masaki [4d\]: !
vagabundo [3d\]: or even g8?
Masaki [4d\]: no way to kill w here
ptitlou [2d\]: e6 ?
vagabundo [3d\]: maybe f6
vagabundo [3d\]: shape
]
;W[fn]WL[146.611]C[Masaki [4d\]: the only move
AmerBeton [4k\]: that remind me sth :)
Snowbars [2d\]: f6 is great
ptitlou [2d\]: e5 nearly mandatory now
goren2 [4k\]: g7?
vagabundo [3d\]: white nows plays n7
vagabundo [3d\]: and its over
AmerBeton [4k\]: n7 little bit boring
]
;B[hm]BL[60]OB[3]C[AmerBeton [4k\]: and n8 looks bigger to me
AmerBeton [4k\]: but im surely wrong
liusasori [3d\]: e5 alive 
]
;W[eo]WL[134.084]
;B[en]BL[60]OB[3]C[liusasori [3d\]: d6 
Masaki [4d\]: woow
Vo1d [4d\]: :)
Vo1d [4d\]: thank you
sanjulorf [1d\]: d6 
Masaki [4d\]: hehe
AmerBeton [4k\]: what was the purpose behing e6 ?
AmerBeton [4k\]: behind
breakfast [3p\]: thx!
Masaki [4d\]: d
sanjulorf [1d\]: try to kill the group
liusasori [3d\]: he try to kill
])
(;B[rg]C[breakfast [3p\]: best, but
breakfast [3p\]: anyway, hard to attack
Vo1d [4d\]: y
]
;W[qh]))
(;B[qd]C[breakfast [3p\]: best way
AmerBeton [4k\]: i think b did really good first part of the game
breakfast [3p\]: hard to use thickness in real game
breakfast [3p\]: yes, he did well
]))
(;B[hq]C[breakfast [3p\]: tenuki is OK here
]))
